SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This thread is going to be an extension of the thread "What Is Marriage" for me. I learned a lot in that thread, and now there are new considerations being single.

Why do we get married? Should I look to remarry? Should I advise my daughter and sons to marry?

Bigger said in that previous thread that "we get married in the church and divorced in the courthouse", and that marriage is a legal contract like any business deal. What a romantic, right?

He’s not wrong. But that is also not a complete answer. Nobody writes heart felt songs over mergers and acquisitions. There is just more to this than your everyday contract.

I’d like to have a conversation with you all about this. I want to try to sort out some complex thoughts and feelings on this subject. In order to speak genuinely and stay within community guidelines, let’s use terms like "primary income earner" rather than "provider husband", or "primary care provider" rather than "stay at home mother". There are important parts of the conversation in acknowledging the members of a marriage may have different roles, and we can include them respectfully if we are thoughtful here.

I have a lot of swirling thoughts on this. That’s when I know I should come to you all. So what are the reasons to get married? And conversely, what are the risks to taking the plunge? The nightmare of betrayal has upended my thoughts on this institution. I’d like to start building back up and would love your help in that work.

Historically, men’s greater strength forced them into three primary roles:

- they fought, both offensively and defensively
- they hunted, with clubs and spears
- they cleared land and broke ground

These roles are increasingly irrelevant in today’s society. I wonder if women will continue to have any use for men.

Of course, having a tall husband makes dragging a ladder out unnecessary. And heavy furniture is never where it belongs, is it?

On the other side, there was a story out of South Africa, I believe, some years ago.

Young male elephants were going rogue, crashing through villages and fields, injuring people and property.

Scientists leapt into study. They ultimately blamed this unusual behavior on poachers.

The poachers were killing off mature male elephants for their tusks, leaving the young male elephants with no role models of proper behavior.

Maybe we need decent men in marriages to help raise decent young men.

Initial response:

I read yesterday that the Harvard longitudinal study that started in 1938 concluded that the single best indicator of long-term happiness was a strong M at age 50.

With a little more thought:

I went for M because I thought it would make it easier to stay together over the long term, and I was as sure as I could be that I would continue to want my W until the end of my days. I thought the difficulty of D would make it easier to resolve problems, since that would take less energy and resources than D.

Part of my thinking was that I knew I'd be hard to live with. M would therefore make it easier for W2b to stick with me.

Now that you mention it, I have been very surprised by life. Except for a relatively brief period after d-day, D has never been on the table. Our careers were much different from what they looked like they'd be. Our home lives are much different from our parents'. Our likes and dislikes have changed somewhat, though part of that is age - we no longer can go to blues clubs and stick around until the wee hours when the music gets really good. But I was certainly right about our desire to be together.

All in all, I think we'd still be together without the M 'paper', but I didn't know that 50-odd years ago.

Third response:

Our son was born when we were overseas at a time the country we were in was thought to be in crisis. Some wealthy citizens were paying US citizens to claim they fathered children so the kids could get a US passport. The consulate decided not to provide passports unless the requester showed a marriage certificate, even if it was the mother who had US citizenship - HIGHLY illegal, but impossible to fight with a flight home looming.

I'm sure we would have prevailed, but it would have been difficult to coordinate the effort. Our parents would have had to get their senators and congresspeople to put pressure onto the State department. State would have had to pressure the consulate, etc.

We were scheduled to come home a month after our son was born. Our only income was fellowship money; we had no assets other than our books and clothes which weighed 98 kg.

The marriage certificate allowed us to get our son a passport and to get home when we wanted to. I am very glad I didn't have to get into a political fight while dealing with a new baby and a move home.

Fourth

Our culture told us not to live together or have sex without M. We were enculturated(?) before the sexual revolution. We went our own way in many things, but I don;t think we would have violated those norms.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:00 PM, Friday, May 2nd]

Twue wuv.

Twue wuv.

Come on, man, do better. You know how fond I am of Princess Bride memes.

I've been hopeless with members of the opposite sex my entire life and married the first woman who would because I reckoned it was the only chance I was likely to get. Stupid reason, I know, but when you're that desperate you can make irrational decisions.

I haven't the slightest idea why she married me. She went off on the first of numerous affairs when we'd only been married for three months and in the three years our marriage lasted she had so many it was impossible to pin down an accurate figure (At least nine, not including one-night-stands)

I can't help wondering how many men she would have slept with in that period if she hadn't had to hide them from me. Being married must have cramped her style.

[This message edited by Attlas at 6:19 PM, Friday, May 2nd]

I've now known two sisters and two close girlfriends who have divorced. Three have remarried, and the fourth is engaged. I think all of them said, in the immediate aftermath of divorce, "I will NEVER get married again." Hell, I said it 3 months ago. I am not considering getting married again, but my 'absolutely never' stance is not as firm as it was then.

Each person probably has an assorted grab bag of reasons to marry. Health insurance and financials are big players for my friends as we are all mid-50s now. Infidelity scars are a reason NOT to get married, because marriage is a huge risk after you realize how much betrayal is A) possible when you did not suspect it, and B) hurts.

I am not advising marriage to my grown sons. I actively discouraged my 20 year old from making that commitment to his girlfriend of six years because I feel they have enough to do with college and launching careers right now. My advice was that they have a lot going on already, and waiting to add to that load/stress, at least where it is an option, just makes sense.

At this point in life I'd be more likely to advise caution and taking some steps to ensure integrity prior to any long-term commitment. I wouldn't advise my kids to get married but that's because I don't want to influence them one way or another, and I'm still pretty pissed off about my own failed marriage.

In general I believe the younger gen is less in a rush to tie the knot, but I think kids of contentedly married parents will seek someone to marry more often than not. There will always be appeal in a wedding and having a spouse to claim, I believe. Knowing we have a person at our back is comforting.

For myself, I have so many trust issues now that I may be out no matter what. Plus my beneficiaries are my sons, which is as it should be, and another marriage could muddy those waters. I'm still adjusting to being divorced, and I miss having a partner to share errands and home maintenance, but eventually I will downsize. I'm getting there, to a place of peace and mental security on my own. I sure don't miss XWH's lying, cheating ass.

I have a tendency to romanticize. I'm down to earth and practical on most fronts, but on this topic I am just not. Disney has a lot to answer for! I don't WANT to romanticize, but I can't help wanting to believe 100% in, as ThisIsFine says, twue wuv. If I connect with a guy that connects with me too, and it grows and matures past the initial honeymoon stage, I'm gonna want to share events, meals, closeness, and a life with him.

"Love is a deep well from which you may drink often, but into which you may fall but once." --Ellye Howell Glover

I'm realizing that I've never yet fallen into the well, but in my mind the potential is still RIGHT THERE. And that makes me feel positive and happy, even if I don't get into a headspace where I am able to trust enough to marry a second time. Romantic love is so fundamental to us that even though it's intangible, most people share similar beliefs about it having power and substance. Of course, one can love without marrying, which is the playground I'll be choosing to visit for the foreseeable future. But yeah, I want to keep a hint of that possibility alive no matter what.

To be totally honest - I married because he wanted to.

To go to Bigger's point and to dissect it a bit more so my reasoning is a bit better to understand - from my perspective we actually get married by the state and divorced in the courthouse (the court issues the marriage license after all) - that is the legal contract. Some people also get married in the church - but that is a contract with their diety and in reality that is a totally separate thing.

I am very anti-organized religion, so I put my foot down and said I was never going to get married in a house of worship as I did not want that kind of approval on my relationship. And, I always felt that I did not need the state to put its blessing on any relationship I had either as I felt that was also meaningless. My commitment to my relationship and my partner was my bond - mine. A piece of paper changed nothing as far as that commitment went - which to me was and is the most important part of the relationship IMO - nor did standing up in front of a bunch of people who already knew I was wholly committed to my then future ex-WS. In fact, I found that the only thing marriage did change was to "legitimize" my relationship in the eyes of some members of society who didn't already know me in a way that being together for 20+ years would not have done. And in a way that hint of legitimacy angered me to be treated differently (usually better) because of a piece of paper. But I digress...

I had no need for the church or the state to give my relationship the "green light" so to speak, I never cared about getting married. Ultimately marriage was important to him so we did it. In hindsight I think he needed that approval of society thing that irritates me so much - that itself was a red flag not about infidelity but his personality in general - that I overlooked. It is not lost on me that he is the one who wanted marriage - I am the one who did not cheat. Live and learn.

I feel the same way now about marriage. I am not anti-marriage, I just don't need it but I suppose if I felt that commitment again with someone and being married was important to them, I would consider it.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 6:45 PM, Friday, May 2nd]

For me, marriage is a contract to pursue shared goals together.( we are not religious nor were we married in a church) These goals, children, a home, a companion, duel income, commitment to look after one another when Ill, etc are attainable only with a partner. I believe romantic love ebbs and flows in a marriage/relatiionship and is a bonus when it’s there, but not a deal breaker when absent. I’ve always looked at marriage as more of a business partnership. Never been much of a romantic. I’ve always loved my husband and I truly believe he has me, but we certainly haven’t been "in love" with each other the entire marriage. It’s just not a sustainable emotion for either of us. It comes and goes. However, even through the cheating, he continued to work on our shared goals. This doesn’t mean his cheating wasn’t hurtful and that infidelity isn’t expected. It just means I wasn’t bankrupting the entire company that was doing well in all other areas. I think all those love songs and poems are written during an in love period of a marriage or relationship. So often a few years later the song writer is divorced. 🤨

I'll take a shot at a serious answer.

Before infidelity, I would tell you it's to show commitment, provide stability, and reflect the bonding of two people as one. It also provides a simple structure for the variety of marital benefits that are much harder to get (or impossible) without marriage.

-Inheritance
-Employment Benefits
-Government Survival Benefits
-Spousal Legal Priviledge

I'm sure there are others.

But!

I would say the benefits aren't worth the risks if you are a the high earner. Which lands us a little bit back to the "why"?

And there is advice out there "Why buy the cow if the milk is free?"

If you are the low earner, wrangling for marriage is natural since it provides additional financial stability. It's almost pure risk for the high earner. Alimony, especially provided to a cheater, is a bitter pill to swallow.

There is going to be so much to talk about here 🤯

As an engineer of high reliability systems, one principle that I find useful is that you don’t want one part of the system to be critical to multiple different functions. It puts you into trade off decisions that may have no good solution, and it makes keeping track of how everything works significantly more challenging.

Marriage seems to be a solution to every problem, and that troubles me. Cultural expectations, religious rules, biological urges, caring for offspring, governmental benefits, legal considerations, demonstration of affection and commitment. Does it all originate from an innate human desire to pair bond and procreate, and then all these other considerations got slapped onto it? It seems so muddled and unclear for such a near universal practice across the planet. It can mean different things to different people, but at the end of the day your heart can be shattered and half of all you own forcibly taken away from you. We’re playing with higher stakes than the typical "whatever seems best to you" scenario.

If you are the low earner, wrangling for marriage is natural since it provides additional financial stability. It's almost pure risk for the high earner. Alimony, especially provided to a cheater, is a bitter pill to swallow.

Exactly. When I think of my kids, my knee jerk cynical view right now is to advise them away from marriage. But I also quickly recognize that some of them are likely to be the primary care giver in a relationship, likely the lower earner, and I want the "coverage" for them. Honestly, that has helped me to swallow said intensely bitter pill of very significant alimony. I have all kinds of thoughts and feelings about my situation and what justice looks like. But at the end of the day, I see the benefit of my potential future grandchildren having a loving parent raise them, and for that to happen then there is likely to be a financial imbalance within the partnership. I suppose then that marriage is a method of protecting the vulnerable, and I value that.

I wanted to add to my post that I do believe that alimony should only be granted for the reasons it was intended to be. If one partner chooses to run off with another making divorce a given they should have to pay dearly to the partner they broke the contract with. If the primary earner is not the one to break the deal then I don’t think he/she should have to pay the other a dime or give up any parenting time. But, the laws don’t agree with me. 🤨

I've been hopeless with members of the opposite sex my entire life and married the first woman who would because I reckoned it was the only chance I was likely to get.

I can relate to this. I was really insecure around women as a young man, hardly dated. Just having a pretty girl showing interest rev’d something up strong inside. I’m really determined to not let this influence me again. I guess this is a benefit of dating apps, it’s not been hard to get attention there. I still think this comes down to the biological urges though. We know we want a partner, we may just be underestimating our own desirability.

I have a tendency to romanticize. I'm down to earth and practical on most fronts, but on this topic I am just not. Disney has a lot to answer for! I don't WANT to romanticize, but I can't help wanting to believe 100% in, as ThisIsFine says, twue wuv.

Indeed. How many ideas have Disney and Hallmark implanted into our subconscious about love and marriage, hyping the benefits? And who has warned us about any of the hazards? Even my own mother, who was cheated on repeatedly, never cautioned me, never warned me about the downsides. It was like marriage was just inevitable, it’s what you do, a rite of passage. With all the supposed benefits constantly dangled in front of us and all the hazards kept in the shadows, it feels like being sold a bill of goods.

I’ve always looked at marriage as more of a business partnership. Never been much of a romantic.

Thanks for sharing, friend. You’ve said similar things in the past, but I think I understand you better this time than ever before.

A question comes to mind, and I hope it’s not offensive to you, it is certainly not intended to be. With you being a self described non-romantic, how do compare the pain you felt from his betrayal compared to what you hear in stories here. I’m curious if having a more practical view of marriage may mitigate the pain.

Again, I in no way mean to minimize your pain or experience, I know you have suffered. Please forgive me if this comes across as insensitive.

I am very anti-organized religion, so I put my foot down and said I was never going to get married in a house of worship as I did not want that kind of approval on my relationship. And, I always felt that I did not need the state to put its blessing on any relationship I had either as I felt that was also meaningless. My commitment to my relationship and my partner was my bond - mine. A piece of paper changed nothing as far as that commitment went - which to me was and is the most important part of the relationship IMO - nor did standing up in front of a bunch of people who already knew I was wholly committed to my then future ex-WS. In fact, I found that the only thing marriage did change was to "legitimize" my relationship in the eyes of some members of society who didn't already know me in a way that being together for 20+ years would not have done. And in a way that hint of legitimacy angered me to be treated differently (usually better) because of a piece of paper. But I digress...

This strikes me as a pretty counter cultural view, particularly for a young person. Any thoughts on where this came from for you in your early adulthood?

A question comes to mind, and I hope it’s not offensive to you, it is certainly not intended to be. With you being a self described non-romantic, how do compare the pain you felt from his betrayal compared to what you hear in stories here. I’m curious if having a more practical view of marriage may mitigate the pain.

I know your question was not to me, but as I too have always seen marriage from the contract perspective I figured I would answer too.

There was NO difference. I was absolutely as broken and a total wreck as anyone else on this site.

This, for me, is so because I saw the commitment I made to him as more than any piece of paper could describe or contain. So the breach of trust of that commitment was profoundly difficult for me to deal with (see e.g. my story of driving off with the fuel nozzle still placed in my car and thus ripping it off the side of the fuel tank at the filling station twice in one day because I was so emotionally and mentally frazzled). For a time I would say that I was one of the more forgiving, let's give this a chance, people on here - and yeah, largely to my emotional detriment. I do think that once I reached a critical mass of pain, I was able to "snap myself out of it" quicker than most, but that was because I really figured out that the only ship I was in control of was the one I was piloting - me. And I came to that realization due in part to therapy and in larger part to this very website. I always have been very emotionally attached when I decide to be - that's it - I'm all in. When someone takes that commitment and basically takes a gigantic shit on it and then sits around and laughs at it with their AP - that really took me to a bad bad place for quite awhile.

For the sake of transparency, my wife and I celebrated our 21st anniversary just a couple of months ago. This is also my second marriage. My first marriage lasted approximately 2 years, with the final 9 months consisting of separation en route to divorce.

A quick search netted the following statistics:

*Almost 50 percent of all marriages in the United States will end in divorce or separation.

*Researchers estimate that 41 percent of all first marriages end in divorce.

*60 percent of second marriages end in divorce.

*73 percent of all third marriages end in divorce.

*There are nearly 3 divorces in the time it takes for a couple to recite their wedding vows (2 minutes). (crazy!)

*Wives are the ones who most often file for divorce at 66 percent on average. That figure has soared to nearly 75 percent in some years.

There is more, but overall the above statistics should be sobering to anyone considering marriage. I tend to lean libertarian, and as such, prefer that the government has the least amount of impact upon my life. This also means that, much like Bigger, I have lost the idealistic view of marriage and adopted a more pragmatic view.

If you intend to have children, marriage is essentially a necessity. Statistics of children from single parent households are pretty ominous. With rare exception, children of single parent households are at a statistical disadvantage in nearly every way. Children very clearly benefit from intact families. That is as solid a reason as any to marry.

Additionally, marriage becomes very important for people who practice various religions. This gives them adherence to the laws, rules, or dogma of their particular faith.

Beyond that, it is hard to justify marriage in America, particularly for the men. This isn't to suggest a significant portion of those divorces initiated by women aren't justified. My first marriage ended with my wife filing, and I legitimately earned that divorce due to my lack of maturity. But with some studies suggesting that 3 in 4 divorces are initiated by women, that should give any man pause for considering marriage. Then when one considers that some states still have draconian policies of lifetime alimony, it becomes even more bleak.

I have told my son (in as many words) that if he does not want children, he should strongly consider not marrying. My wife does not like hearing me say this as the entire premise of her belief in marriage is based on both religious and emotional justification. But she also stubbornly believes in marriage, which has a good bit to do with why we are still together after nearly 23 years in totality.

Edit: Typo.

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 8:04 PM, Friday, May 2nd]

Any thoughts on where this came from for you in your early adulthood?

I studied art and architectural history (we were looking at 1000-1500 AD buildings on site all over the world - cool for sure - but at that age of building/art they are mostly churches (or in the case of art inside churches or made for a religious purpose) or other religious buildings so the history of various churches and religious organizations went hand in hand with that). So my disdain for those organizations largely stem from studying their history. Then I abandoned that and became an attorney, and a contract litigator at that - so contracts used to be my world (I no longer represent clients - woo hoo). So I guess you could say that my feelings are largely derived from my education. That and the fact that I grew up in a very liberal place - the fact that people had to be male-female to be married really irked me as in my mind while the church was allowed to dabble in whose relationship they wanted to sanctify or not, I felt the state should not be allowed to do so, so I suppose I thought it was kind of a discriminatory practice when I was younger.

That being said, I was never the girl who played with dolls. I wasn't really into dress up or any of that stuff that feeds into the whole matrimonial fantasy - the white dress, everyone fawning over you, the attention - never was my thing. So I never dreamt of getting married like some of my friends did - so when it happened I was a bit out of my element. I figured we would get married by a justice of the peace or something and spend loads on a honeymoon and travel somewhere fantastic for like a month - rent a big sailboat and sail around the Indian Ocean to the Seychelles and Natulus and the Maldives or something - something spectacular. Instead we ended up having a massive and expensive wedding that went on for days and barely a honeymoon at all.

I also never wanted children - at least I never wanted to have one myself (but I was open to adoption). And I know that some people think marriage and kids go hand in hand. When I was younger I think I thought that way, so avoiding marriage meant avoiding having children?!? lol

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 8:21 PM, Friday, May 2nd]