SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm new here and suffering a little confusion about navigating around, but I would like to believe you can read in my profile the full context behind the questions I'm asking. In "brief," however: I--a socially-isolated monogamously-married male healthcare professional with AuDHD whose healthcare professional wife and he had long grown distant emotionally--rapidly amd intentionally cultivated an online long-distance friendship with a single woman into what became an "emotional affair" before I knew that term or accepted its significance. Romance/sex was never an in fact part of the affair--at least partly because I never actually wanted to be an adulterer and that element was what I once thought constituted the line between healthy and hurtful. (Full disclosure: for 1-3 days in the middle of the relationship, I found myself harboring such thoughts, but I immediately squelched them and they never recurred.) The breakup of the affair a couple of months ago almost destroyed me, but--thank God!--I'm clearly still here to tell the tale.

I have apologized earnestly to my wife and to God for my sin, yet surreally, I simultaneously feel grateful for an affair that rescued my once-poor self-esteem (by making me feel seen and appreciated for attributes over which I have long held shame) and arguably even my marriage (by jolting my wife out of long-entrenched apathy toward our marriage). My initially immense grief over the loss of my emotional affair has softened, but I still encounter the loss of that relationship with genuine sorrow. After much internal wrestling, however, I have conceded that reconnecting with my affair partner at this time--while my marriage heals--would be unbalancing and unsafe. Since I met my wife 28.5 years ago, I have never stopped loving her, and I want most of all (just not exclusively) to protect the marriage. My affair partner and I legitimately have honored full "no contact" over the last couple of months. My perfect behavioral compliance has sustained my wife and me in ongoing marriage counseling.

At the same time--very much counter to established marriage counseling advice--I feel quite adamant about at least trying to reconnect with my affair partner (strictly in friendship) eventually--once my wife and marriage have healed enough to bear that strain. Only at that point, and only if my wife is then able to grant me permission to do so, I intend to resuscitate as much of that extramarital relationship as I can without threatening displacement of my wife from being--rightfully and undeniably--at the center of my emotional world. Although not trained professionally in marriage counseling, I have meticulously autopsied for the factors that once led me astray and ruminated to develop powerful safeguarding strategies I can follow to resurrect 90% of my precious extramarital relationship with virtually 0% risk of affair recidivism. I sincerely believe I have developed a sustainable framework, but I am humble enough to acknowledge the frightening possibility that I could have overlooked a vulnerability. Because life is too short to learn only from one's own mistakes, I am seeking wisdom from you who have walked where I hopefully am heading.

I realize that all mainstream modern theories/models grounding professional marriage counseling insist that perpetual "no contact" with a former affair partner is necessary for a monogamous marriage to recover from an affair and thrive. Far be it from me to allege that those models can't work for many couples, but here's an uncomfortable truth: despite overwhelming consensus among models and counselors endorsing that premise, there is no actual empirical and intellectually rigorous evidence supporting its validity. n.b.: It was once also believed widely that the Sun orbited the Earth and that the Earth was flat! Overlooked, is the fact some couples heal from affairs despite children having been born from the affair--necessitating ongoing collaborative contact between a once-wayward spouse and an ex-affair partner! No claim is here made that such success stories are common; proof of concept is enough to inspire my questions and my course.

What are best practices in engineering bounds likely to ensure that a friendship with a former affair partner doesn’t again endanger a marriage?

What signs or timelines guide when a marriage has healed enough to accommodate an extramarital opposite-sex friendship--especially a friendship with a former affair partner?

Is the permanent sacrifice of a deeply meaningful friendship with one’s former affair partner emotionally necessary for (not just ardently wanted by) a betrayed spouse? If your answer is "yes," what are other choices where emotion can necessitate a sacrifice contrary to logic/reason? I'll start. This is the best case example I have brainstormed of a choice where emotion might necessitate a sacrifice contrary to logic/reason. A man's dear wife requires a liver transplant. The man could donate half of his own liver to his wife, but only at significant risks to his own health. Viewed in the harsh and cold light of logic, one might conclude that the man should keep his liver intact and hope his wife gets offered a cadaveric liver. On the other hand, emotion might well prompt the husband immediately to make the alternative choice and donate half of his liver. In reality, I might well also elect that latter course. However, the crux of my question as applied to my imaginary example is: would any of us fault the man if he withheld his liver? If we wouldn't fault the man for withholding his liver (and I wouldn't), then: can emotional ties or experiences ever truly necessitate a weighty sacrifice?

[This message edited by Unconventional at 5:04 PM, Wednesday, August 26th]

Hi Unconventional,

Do you mean just an opposite-sex friendship or friendship with the AP? As in keeping the AP in your life as a friend?

Both, I suppose. The original question was meant to apply to keeping the friendship of my former affair partner, but I am also worried my wife intends to prohibit opposite sex friendships for me more generally.

What are best practices in engineering bounds likely to ensure that a friendship doesn’t endanger a marriage?

I feel like this was originally given no context, then you say this would be with your AP.

You can have a friendship with your AP, but you will never reconcile. You can choose your marriage by going completely no contact, or you can pretty well expect to divorce. Keeping contact with her will likely lead to reengaging in the affair, and it will devour any chance you have of creating the security your wife needs to heal.

What signs or timelines guide when a marriage has healed enough to accommodate an extramarital opposite-sex friendship?

I think you need to decide if you want to prioritize your marriage or not. If you do, then you will not be worried about when you can have female friends again. This is a natural consequence of cheating. You have destroyed any stability, security, safety, feelings of specialness to your wife. It takes a long concerted effort to rebuild these things for your marriage to even have a chance at survival. If you are unwilling to do that, you are better to leave now rather than torture her through a half assed effort. After an affair you have to be all in, there is no other way it will work.

Is the permanent sacrifice of a deeply meaningful extramarital friendship with one’s affair partner justified by emotional necessity for the betrayed spouse?

Unequivocally yes. Also for you. As long as she remains in your life you will resume the affair. And even if that is not your intention, it will happen.

Affairs are rooted in feelings creqt e by the affair itself moreso than any AP. I know that doesn’t feel that way to you right now, it’s very difficult to put away because you have become addicted to the dopamine and adrenaline and chemical cocktail of the affair.

Ask me how I know…

Been there, and going through the withdrawal of that was absolutely brutal and the best thing for me at the same time. I have also watched this play out with other waywards in this forum for the last almost ten years. Read about romantic infidelity—what you are going through is not special, it’s a predictable psychological reaction to being in an affair.

There is no chance of saving your marriage if you feel you can prioritize keeping the friendship while sacrificing your traumatized wife’s needs and feelings. She has to be number one, and only.

I have to fully support hiking out on this one.

You simply cannot maintain a relationship with AP and repair your marriage. In choosing to stay with your wife you need to chose to end all contact with AP. Continued contact with AP and anyone associated with AP keeps the affair live and pushed you wife further from you at a time when you need to be focussed on her. Contact with AP or even refusing to go no contact could:

- Stop any emotional connection with you BS as you still have connection to AP. Every text message, e-mail, phone call keeps that bond you have with AP alive and by doing so there is little or no chance of any real connection building with BS

- There is a possibility / probability of relapsing into the affair. Let's be honest, you are not out of the affair. BREAK CONTACT

- No contact helps generate clear thought. When communication stops, the intensity often fades, making it easier to think clearly and do some meaningful work and self evaluation

- Trust is built by actions not words. Something I failed to acknowledge and still have work to do. If your attention is still focussed in any way on your AP then BS may find it impossible to believe the recovery or your intentions are real and genuine

There is no timeline on having female friends again. It is highly likely your BS will ever be comfortable with you having same sex friends. Hey, you're likely to need to look at same sex friends if they valdated your affair. You need to be safe and continued contact is unsafe.

Thanks for adding the additional context in your post, which was missing at the beginning.

Can I ask why do you want to reconnect with the AP in the future? Even if you didn’t have sex, why would you wish to re-engage with a situation that could have potentially destroyed your marriage?

You don’t have to answer me, I asked the above just so you can think about it.

It could be that you still are in the affair fog and you miss what you were receiving from the interactions with that person. That’s "ok" for now, in the sense that it can be common feeling this way.

You don’t need empirical evidence that "no contact" is the way.

The fact that your marriage hasn’t even recovered for two minutes and you are already (never stopped) thinking about resuscitating contact with the AP should be a massive red flag for you.

I wouldn’t trust your "framework", it seems that your brain is still working at 100% to rationalise and find a legit way to keep the AP in your life (I say this gently and respectfully)

Don’t give in. Keep focusing on your marriage. Work on yourself.

If loneliness / isolation is an issue, until it’s tackled, I would focus on same-sex friendships.

What will you do if she never grants permission?

Can I ask why do you want to reconnect with the AP in the future? Even if you didn’t have sex, why would you wish to re-engage with a situation that could have potentially destroyed your marriage?

The relationship with my affair partner brought me genuine joy. I grew as a person from all the collective pieces of her personhood. If the relationship was reducible to the elements I obtained from it (e.g. affirmation, opportunity to comfort and protect, etc.), then my wife alone could be the future source of my "fixes" by fulfilling those functions. However, I miss my once affair partner as a unique and whole human being. Also, a rejection of my former affair partner would be very hard for me to separate from a rejection of the beneficial lessons learned from her because that's just how I relate to people and because the lessons I obtained from her (e.g. my own unique individual personhood actually does still have value) are so very central to me. Surely, my wife can bring me joy again, but her own unique brand of joy--as it should be! What I want from my wife is not my once affair partner, but my wife! I don't want my wife to have to feel pressure to try to "measure-up" to any external standard. Lastly, why should I not want a 2nd source of joy if I can make it safe, as I believe I can, given the circumstances. There is a fine line, sometimes, between confidence and arrogance. I am shooting for the former, not the latter, by planning to collaborate with my wife, people in this forum, and one or more professional marriage counselors in refining and hopefully perfecting my safety plan.

You don’t need empirical evidence that "no contact" is the way.

True--for now. When my wife and marriage have healed solidly enough, however, I will. Part of the reason I anticipate that need is just knowing who I authentically am. Beyond that, though: If I forsake pursuit of the friendship I want, I will incur a loss and unavoidably grow resentment (toward my wife for excluding my friendship) that will be corrosive to the marriage. That's a "negative" for me (both the loss and the resentment) and my wife (the resentment of her). Alternatively, if I pursue the friendship I want, I will cultivate a benefit--a "positive." I am enthusiastic to invest great effort in minimizing any discomfort my wife experiences from that friendship's existence--making my wife's experience of the friendship a neutral ("zero"), but even if that effort fails, and my wife experiences a "negative" over my friendship, the sum of two negatives is mathematically a more negative outcome for us, considered as a couple, than the sum of a positive and either a zero or a negative. From a utilitarian perspective, my hope to resume contact with my once affair partner is the better path. If someone wants to dissuade me from that path, they will have to be able to articulate a justification. Saying that thousands or tens of thousands or even millions of couples have reconciled and thrived on another path isn't sufficient to prove that the path that I--and the ethical framework of utilitarianism--prefer is doomed.

If loneliness / isolation is an issue, until it’s tackled, I would focus on same-sex friendships.

Loneliness is an issue, but despite being strictly heterosexual (BTW, I'm not here to rip on other orientations; I'm just not them.), I have never, in adulthood, related as well and comfortably with men as with women. That stated, I am not opposed to holding friendships with men if they should arise. I hope it may be reassuring to you to hear from me--and for my wife to know of me--that I have no history of skirt-chasing. I am not a philanderer. I've cheated on a romantic partner only once in my entire life. By that comment, I don't mean to trivialize my sin--but a one-off doesn't establish a pattern. Moreover, I never wanted an affair. I created one, not realizing what it was. Now, I know better.

If someone wants to dissuade me from that path

dude... please. By all means, continue with your fantasy. Keep walking straight into the wall like it’s a doorway. Pretend you’re the one guy in human history who can cheat on his spouse and then magically convert the affair partner into a "healthy friendship." It’s not delusional at all

Cut the AP off completely or admit you’re not choosing your marriage. Those are the only two paths. Everything else is you trying to negotiate the terms of your own selfishness.

If you want to keep your AP, just say you’re not in reconciliation instead of dressing it up like some deep existential question. Your poor wife...she deserves so much better and you probably do deserve your AP.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 6:17 PM, Wednesday, August 26th]

What will you do if she never grants permission?

That's a really important question and one I've weighed intensively without any settled resolution yet. Time might heal me. Maybe, in time (as my marriage heals), the pull I feel back to my once affair parter will diminish enough to make the sacrifice of my once affair partner's friendship bearable with honor as a sacrifice for my marriage. Right now, I'm finding the notion of that "pull" diminishing to be a disloyal offense against...something (my friend, myself... I'm not sure). I'm cognitively fighting against time to retain that "pull" and unsure which side will win.

My affair partner would not have me back in her life without my wife's blessing--so there's no road back to her on any terms without my marriage thriving. Vitally, that's not why I am trying now to heal my marriage. I view a healed and thriving marriage as a good and a goal unto itself. Nevertheless, the premise opening this paragraph remains relevant.

Assuming my want for my once affair partner in friendship remains when I assess that my marriage has healed well, I will ask for my wife's permission to try to contact my once affair partner. If I gain that permission and my once affair partner accepts me, I will build the friendship back slowly and carefully--avoiding triangulation, spousal-level emotional intimacy, and providing transparency on the friendship to my wife. If my friend or I give my wife cause to object, the friendship pauses. If we can't solve the issue, the friendship ends. If my wife allows me to contact my once affair partner, but that woman refuses me anyhow, I will move-on with my wife and my life and let my once affair partner go emotionally. She will become a sweet memory. Now, for the hard case: Assuming my want for my once affair partner in friendship remains when I assess that my marriage has healed well, but my wife denies me permission to contact my once affair partner, my actual remaining possible courses appear to be limited: (1) try to pretend I believe that the sacrifice of forsaking the friendship I have so missed is honorable as a necessity in service to my marriage, (2) grow resentment toward my wife and corrode my marriage--presumably making my wife and I both miserable and leading eventually to a marital separation or legal divorce. Apart from the conceptual self-erasure required to hold pride in the painful sacrifice of what might've been a beautiful and ethical friendship, what I worry about most is the sustainability of plan #1. Unfortunately, those seem to be my only surviving options.

The relationship with my affair partner brought me genuine joy. I grew as a person from all the collective pieces of her personhood. If the relationship was reducible to the elements I obtained from it (e.g. affirmation, opportunity to comfort and protect, etc.), then my wife alone could be the future source of my "fixes" by fulfilling those functions.

You don’t grow in a good way when you are having an affair. Your ap was willing to get what she wanted and disregard your wife as a person. She didn’t care if she was helping you ruin your other relationship. This is BS.

What brought you joy is the dopamine hits one gets from an affair. You don’t know how to produce your own happiness and it must be brought to you by someone else. Work on that, and you can find a path towards a fullfilling life.

You didn’t grow from this but you can grow from this moving forward.

However, I miss my once affair partner as a unique and whole human being.

You can be with her but then you must miss your wife as a whole human being. You can’t have both.

Also, a rejection of my former affair partner would be very hard for me to separate from a rejection of the beneficial lessons learned from her because that's just how I relate to people and because the lessons I obtained from her (e.g. my own unique individual personhood actually does still have value) are so very central to me.

Every relationship I have ever had provided valuable lessons. Those people not being in my life doesn’t take away the respect I have for those lessons. Do you stay in contact with every person that has ever given you a mending up experience? That’s not realistic.

Surely, my wife can bring me joy again

, again, you are responsible le to bring yourself joy. I do not deny having solid connection and good relationships enhance our life. But here you have just shit on your wife by cheating on her and you are talking about how she will bring you joy again. You need to do some self evaluation.

What I want from my wife is not my once affair partner, but my wife! I don't want my wife to have to feel pressure to try to "measure-up" to any external standard. Lastly, why should I not want a 2nd source of joy if I can make it safe, as I believe I can, given the circumstances

.

You are lying to yourself. You likely have an addiction to the affair and it’s like you saying, I am an alcoholic but I am going to put this glass of whiskey on my kitchen counter because I need to see it but I won’t drink it.

There is a fine line, sometimes, between confidence and arrogance. I am shooting for the former, not the latter, by planning to collaborate with my wife, people in this forum, and one or more professional marriage counselors in refining and hopefully perfecting my safety plan.

Not one of these people - your wife, your therapist, or this forum is going to co-sign your plan. You are lying to yourself.

You must choose. If you chose the ap you will lose your wife, if you choose your wife you must completely lose your AP.

You are being very selfish and will likely lose both.

An affair is an illusion. I lost myself and my marriage as I knew it falling into that illusion. I am not saying what I am telling you to be rude—I am just telling you the truth. You can not have both women in your life and your assertion you can is going to be devastating to your wife.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:32 PM, Wednesday, August 26th]

Foreverlabeled,

Pretend you’re the one guy in human history who can cheat on his spouse and then magically convert the affair partner into a "healthy friendship." It’s not delusional at all

The circumstances do matter. I didn't know I was seeking an affair. Now, I know what I sought and obtained was wrong, I know why I wanted what I wanted, and I know how to "land the plane" safely this time. As part of that: I'm not seeking a friendship with my former affair partner until my marriage is again mutually fulfilling.

The thing to appreciate about "magic" is: it looks like an illusion--an impossibility--but it's actually a very carefully planned series of thoughtful steps. So, yeah: I believe in magic!

Cut the AP off completely or admit you’re not choosing your marriage. Those are the only two paths.

I believe I already have established the falsehood of that commonly imagined dichotomy.

Hikingout,

You are being very selfish and will likely lose both.

By their nature, affairs are selfish. I had an affair and continued it after I knew what it was; I was selfish.

If you had an affair, I even would go so far as to suggest that you also might've once upon a time been selfish.

Fortunately, as human beings, we can learn and improve. Thank you for trying to help me improve!

I am aware I already have lost my once affair partner and could lose my wife. I certainly want not to lose her too. At this time, I am focused solely on healing my marriage and regaining my integrity. I am not going to pretend that my own selfishness--highlighted by my affair--isn't a character flaw with which I must yet wrestle and try to purge. I owe better to my wife.

At the same time, I wish to point out that the ethical system of utilitarianism that I employed in a different response to justify the course I am pursuing does not accommodate selfishness. It teaches that we should all act to further the greatest overall good--even if little or none of that good accrues to us. The plan I am intending is justified under utilitarianism--and therefore defies apt characterization as selfishness. Classify my line of thought as you will. Objectively, while I am ashamed not to be above selfishness, what I have proposed is not a selfish plan.

Hikingout,

One more thought...

You likely have an addiction to the affair and it’s like you saying, I am an alcoholic but I am going to put this glass of whiskey on my kitchen counter because I need to see it but I won’t drink it.

To me, your analogy doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny. I think a more parallel analogy--it's still far from perfect (partly because the benefit to the alcoholic of merely seeing the alcohol is questionable)--would be: "I am an alcoholic, but I am going to put this glass of whiskey on my kitchen counter because I need to see it..." Now... I recognize the danger to me of the alcohol, so before I put myself around alcohol, I will have installed a video security system installed and wired-up to AI so that--if the room goes dark, the flood lamp lights the room, and if I raise the glass to my mouth or put a straw or a spoon into the glass with which I may consume any of the alcohol--or if I attempt to drill into the glass so the liquid will drain or spill into my mouth, I get shocked badly enough that I will lose consciousness."

what I have proposed is not a selfish plan.

Ok. Carry on. I'll have to bow out of this one. Good luck.

Foreverlabled,

The statement in your "Signature" on this site...

Your journey is not the same as mine, and my journey is not the same as yours, but if we meet on a certain path, may we encourage each other.

Given the way you responded to me, maybe you forgot it... or maybe you truncated the rest of that quotation, which might've gone something like: "But, if we meet on a different path, may I successfully mock you--because you're clearly on the wrong path!"

If you had an affair, I even would go so far as to suggest that you also might've once upon a time been selfish.

I did have an affair.

I also felt addicted to the affair, and didn’t want to let my affair partner go.

In fact everyone who responded to this thread has had an affair, we have all been on some level where you are right now.

You are continuing the fantasy with this idea a friendship could ever be rekindled here. You will do all this work in trying to rebuild trust in your marriage, trying to lend your marriage, which is hard as hell on a good day…and then, the minute you reveal this plan or ask of your wife you will undo every bit of that work.

This is completely delusional.

And the alcoholic would still drink the whiskey even if there was a full plan, cameras, etc.

There is no sense in arguing the future with you. If you are committed to doing the work, then proceed. If you do it right, you will know what we have told you is true.

I too was delusional after my affair ended, it’s normal. But I am not going to lie to you about it.

the minute you reveal this plan or ask of your wife you will undo every bit of that work

My wife and our marriage counselor already know that my hope for reconciliation with my former affair partner remains--I've said so quite directly--and we're still moving forward toward reconciliation in marriage counseling, so I hope your forecast is wrong. That would be quite tragic.

I might also ask those of you who have coped with perpetual "no contact" with a person (or 2 or 3 or several) with whom you had an affair: How have you held perpetually a conflict between a draw back to your ex and your spouse?

I hope that will not have to be the scenario that plays-out for me--but I concede that it could be.

I wonder if many once-wayward spouses bear that conflict either by discovering or deciding that an affair partner meant little to you and/or by believing genuinely that an active relationship with your affair partner and a healthy marriage are fundamentally incompatible. Unfortunately, I cannot authentically own either of those perspectives--but either or both sure would make my internal life less of a struggle. For instance, if I actually believed an active relationship with my once affair partner fundamentally to be incompatible with a healthy marriage, I would be able to move forward--saddened and contrite, but unconflicted--toward my spouse. Honestly, I should be primed to adopt that viewpoint! An "easy sale," as it were! However, no authority figure can simply declare that premise to be true in my mind. It has to be proven true. And... I still don't think it can be.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 8:49 PM, Wednesday, August 26th]

Encouragement isn't enablement. My signature is about lifting people up on a path to healing, not applauding you while you dig a deeper hole for your marriage. What you are asking of your wife is gross and I hope she doesn't put up with it for one second.

I mean read the room. You are standing in a community of people rebuilding from infidelity, asking for permission to keep your affair partner on a leash.

You have a quick argument for every truth, a brush off for every boundary, and total contempt for actual accountability. Nobody here is going to encourage you to keep disrespecting your wife under the guise of a "healthy friendship." You are utterly deaf to advice because your ego is running the show. If your mind is already made up and you refuse to hear anyone but yourself, why are you even here?

I've posted already why I'm here. I'm hoping for answers. I'm surely not trying to troll anyone. Surely, someone here has done what I am seeking to do!

What are best practices in engineering bounds likely to ensure that a friendship with a former affair partner doesn’t again endanger a marriage?

What signs or timelines guide when a marriage has healed enough to accommodate an extramarital opposite-sex friendship--especially a friendship with a former affair partner?

Is the permanent sacrifice of a deeply meaningful friendship with one’s former affair partner emotionally necessary for (not just ardently wanted by) a betrayed spouse?

The last of those questions matters because I've internally answered the question: "Is the permanent sacrifice of a deeply meaningful friendship with one’s former affair partner logically necessary for (not just ardently wanted by) a betrayed spouse?" My finding? It is not.

However, it sure would make my internal world simpler if I believed an active relationship with my once affair partner fundamentally to be incompatible with a healthy marriage. So, I began exploring whether that commonly alleged incompatibility could be defensible emotionally. Candidly, that's harder terrain for me because the nature of the topic defies logical interrogation--but, surely, if a meaningful sacrifice could ever be justified as necessary emotionally, then the forsaking of an affair partner for a loved spouse would be justifiable as necessary emotionally. The trouble for me is that I haven't been able to brainstorm any choice in any scenario that, to me, seems necessary emotionally, contrary to logic. I have been hoping someone might help me identify such a proof by example.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 9:13 PM, Wednesday, August 26th]